NEWARK — In early October, I sat down with artist Ron Norsworthy at Mission for Empty Area, the place we each have studios, to debate our practices and discover shared themes. Our dialog touched on identification, magnificence, and the complexities of navigating the artwork world as Black males. Norsworthy’s current work attracts from the parable of Narcissus to look at Black male magnificence and queerness, on view by means of December 21 in his exhibition at Edwynn Houk Gallery in Manhattan. In the meantime, my follow engages with materiality and illustration, most just lately by means of my contribution to Flight into Egypt, a gaggle exhibition on the Metropolitan Museum of Artwork, the place my print “Ancient Still Life” (2015) examines the interaction of identification, migration, and historic narratives. Collectively, we mirrored on how our work intersects, diverges, and responds to broader cultural conversations. This interview has been flippantly edited and condensed for readability.
Damien Davis: I’ve all the time thought that on the subject of artwork, we’ve to strategy issues with a way of playfulness first — particularly while you’re coping with heavy themes. For me, I want that sense of flexibility within the studio. In any other case, I simply really feel trapped. Do you’re feeling the identical manner while you’re beginning a brand new undertaking?
Ron Norsworthy: Oh, undoubtedly. I believe that playfulness permits for the proper of exploration. It provides you room to ask questions with out instantly worrying about solutions. It’s like a strategy of discovery. With the present work I’m doing round Narcissus, it began off as a unfastened thought of how I may contemporize this historic delusion. I didn’t have all of the solutions immediately — I simply wished to discover what it may imply for me, as a Black queer man, to reimagine this classical story. And maybe a greater phrase than “reimagine” is “situate” myself in it. I wanted to see a Narcissus, somebody engaged in falling in love with themselves, who appeared like me. Unsurprisingly, I couldn’t discover one, so I made one. After which I made one other … Till there have been 10!
Ron Norsworthy, “Narcissus (Maybe It’s Time” (2024), mixed-media collage in reduction on wooden panel, 24 x 36 inches (~60.1 x 91.4 cm)
DD: Proper, as a result of Narcissus, within the authentic Historical Greek delusion, is that this determine of self-love, even self-obsession. It’s fascinating to convey that into the context of Black male magnificence, particularly in a world that hasn’t actually created house for that type of self-reflection. What drew you to Narcissus within the first place?
RN: I’ve been fascinated by this concept of magnificence for a very long time, particularly how Black males, and particularly queer Black males, have been omitted of the dialog round magnificence. Narcissus represents this classical perfect of magnificence in Western mythology — White, male, unattainable. However there’s energy in that magnificence. I began to surprise: What if I may reclaim that for Black queer males? How will we take again that narrative of self-love? Narcissus stares at his reflection and is transfixed by it, and that’s one thing we’re usually discouraged from doing — loving ourselves unapologetically.
DD: It’s such a strong shift, proper? As a result of, such as you stated, Black males haven’t been given the house to be seen as lovely. If something, we’ve been hyper-commodified, both as athletes, entertainers, or sturdy, stoic figures — however not usually celebrated for our magnificence. And queer Black males have been even additional pushed to the margins in these conversations. How does the parable of Narcissus assist you to interrogate that erasure?
RN: Narcissus didn’t want anybody to validate his magnificence — he noticed it for himself. And whereas the parable presents that as a type of downfall, I’m fascinated by flipping that narrative. What occurs once we embrace that self-love? What if loving ourselves turns into a revolutionary act, particularly as queer Black males?
DD: It’s attention-grabbing as a result of the parable is usually framed in a destructive gentle — self-obsession resulting in downfall. However you’re utilizing it to speak about self-worth, which feels so obligatory in immediately’s context. I can see how your work challenges the way in which we’ve been conditioned to see magnificence — significantly on the subject of queerness and Blackness.
RN: Sure, precisely. Narcissus provides me a framework to discover magnificence, however it’s additionally a technique to ask broader questions on visibility. Who will get to be seen as lovely? And extra importantly, who will get to outline magnificence? As a result of my work is constructed of plywood layers, on some stage it may be seen as an analog to social constructions corresponding to magnificence, gender, race, and sophistication. We use these to form our identities. The work is actually asserting itself as a building and prompting the viewer to ask what else may be.
DD: It’s actually about taking again that company, proper? In my work, I’m all the time fascinated by the way in which Black our bodies are represented in conventional areas and the way I can problem that, particularly by way of the supplies I exploit. You’re working with these classical concepts, however reinterpreting them by means of a really modern lens. And I believe that’s the place our practices overlap in attention-grabbing methods. You’re questioning the identical hierarchies, however by means of the mythological lens, whereas I’m doing it by means of supplies and summary types.
RN: Yeah, there’s undoubtedly a convergence in how we strategy the idea of visibility. I’m additionally pondering, on this physique of labor, about how magnificence has traditionally been wielded as a type of energy, particularly for queer Black males. Whenever you’re exterior of the dominant thought of what’s thought-about lovely, there’s this fixed must redefine it for your self. That’s why I’m drawn to this concept of Narcissus. He turns into a technique to interrogate magnificence’s energy — each by way of the way it’s perceived and the way it may be reclaimed.
DD: And that’s one thing I’m continuously grappling with too — the concept of reclaiming narratives. For you, Narcissus is a metaphor for Black queer magnificence and self-worth. I’m working in a extra summary house, however the purpose is comparable. I would like my work to be a spot the place Black individuals, particularly those that don’t really feel seen in conventional gallery areas, can see themselves mirrored. There’s a rigidity there between visibility and invisibility.
RN: Completely. And I believe there’s one thing attention-grabbing about how each of us are utilizing our work to problem these areas. Narcissus is trapped by his personal reflection, however that’s the place I see a chance for liberation. What if we may love ourselves in the way in which that he does, however with out the tragedy? What if queer Black males may see themselves as lovely and worthy of admiration, while not having exterior validation? If this new physique of labor had a coronary heart, a middle, that might be it!
DD: It’s so essential to have that dialog about who will get to outline magnificence. After I have a look at this collection, I see that investigation enjoying out in real-time. You’re complicating the concept magnificence is one thing mounted or predetermined. As an alternative, you’re providing up a story the place magnificence is expansive, the place it belongs to everybody — significantly those that’ve traditionally been omitted.
RN: That’s precisely it. And that’s why I’ve depicted Narcissus as 10 totally different people in these works. So, for me, it’s about increasing the dialog, not only for queer Black males, however for everybody. I would like individuals to query why sure our bodies are seen as lovely and others aren’t. And through the use of Narcissus as the start line, I’m asking viewers to rethink what magnificence means, particularly on the subject of race and queerness.
Ron Norsworthy, “Narcissus and Echo” (2024), mixed-media collage in reduction on wooden panel, 33 1/8 x 43 5/8 x 3 3/4 inches (~84.1 x 110.8 x 9.5 cm)
DD: There’s a rigidity between the concept of magnificence as energy and sweetness as a commodity. We all know that the artwork world is constructed round commodification, particularly on the subject of galleries and collectors. How do you navigate that rigidity in your work?
RN: That’s a great query. I’m totally conscious that the work I’m making now, significantly round Narcissus, operates inside a sure type of market. The people who find themselves going to purchase my work are those who can afford it, and that’s a actuality I don’t draw back from. However on the identical time, the work features as greater than only a commodity — it’s a cultural artifact. It’s going to stay past me, whether or not in a museum, a personal assortment, or someplace else. It’s about understanding the techniques we function inside, but additionally pushing towards these boundaries the place we are able to.
DD: I believe that’s what’s fascinating about your strategy. You’re acknowledging the commodification of artwork, however you’re additionally difficult it by creating work that speaks to a lot broader cultural and social points. It’s not nearly promoting a chunk — it’s about what the piece represents and the way it can interact with these bigger conversations round identification, magnificence, and energy.
RN: That’s when the idea of entry turns into so vital. My work is encoded with signifiers legible throughout numerous communities. I additionally need the work to be accessible within the sense that it challenges perceptions of individuals in sure privileged areas. Which individuals and which demographics are key right here? Whether or not it’s hanging in a gallery, being mentioned in a classroom, or being seen in a social media feed, the purpose is to spark conversations.
DD: It’s about creating house for these conversations to occur, whether or not they’re going down in conventional artwork areas or past. And I believe each of our practices are about discovering methods to interrupt down these limitations — whether or not by means of the supplies we use, the themes we discover, or the individuals we hope to achieve.
RN: Proper, and it’s that disruption that I’m all the time on the lookout for in my work. Narcissus turns into a technique to discover these themes in a really direct manner, however it’s additionally about opening up house for others to see themselves mirrored within the work.
DD: It’s so vital, particularly once we’re fascinated by how Black queer males have been marginalized in conversations round magnificence.
RN: I believe there’s one thing in regards to the Narcissus delusion that feels actually related proper now, particularly when you think about how Black queer males are navigating their representations in tradition. The character of Narcissus, in his personal manner, represents this unimaginable customary of idealized male magnificence and the weaponization of self-love and of being so impossibly lovely that you simply fall in love along with your reflection and starve to demise. However what occurs when the inverse occurs? When that reflection is one which society has traditionally refused to validate or see as lovely? If you end up nearly rendered unseen? You don’t should be Black and queer to get the painful memo.
Ron Norsworthy, “Regarding Narcissus” (2024), mixed-media collage in reduction on wooden panel, 36 x 48 inches (~91.4 x 121.9 cm)
DD: Proper, particularly when the sweetness requirements we’re handed down should not made for us. I believe that’s a part of why this dialog is so vital. Whenever you speak about energy and sweetness, it’s not nearly self-love in a superficial manner. It’s in regards to the energy buildings that undergird who will get to be seen as lovely and who doesn’t.
RN: In a manner, Narcissus turns into a metaphor for queer Black males as a result of it’s not about rejection or defiance — it’s extra about merely not being seen or acknowledged in these conventional buildings. It’s not a rejection of the heteronormative world — it’s extra, like, I simply don’t see myself in that framework. It’s virtually like an inversion: The remainder of the world is unfamiliar to me, not the opposite manner round.
DD: I like how that performs into queerness, too, as a result of queerness at its core is about least refusing to evolve to these norms. And it’s attention-grabbing, too, how these myths are centered round magnificence — particularly male magnificence — and the way that will get much more advanced while you’re Black and queer. Society isn’t used to viewing Black males, particularly queer Black males, by means of that lens of magnificence.
RN: And that’s the place the facility of it is available in. Magnificence is energy, and that’s true in so some ways. When queer Black males assert their magnificence, they’re asserting their energy, too, however it’s sophisticated as a result of there’s such a slim customary that’s traditionally been accepted. The Narcissus delusion, for me, turns into a instrument to discover that — to query why sure our bodies, sure faces, and sure pores and skin tones, have been excluded from that narrative of magnificence. It provides me an entrypoint into a much wider dialog about who will get to occupy that house of desirability and the way we, as Black queer males, navigate it.
DD: And I believe that’s the place queerness and gender nonconformity tie in. In some methods, we’re not simply difficult the prevailing magnificence requirements — we’re redefining them. It’s not about becoming into that mildew and even rejecting it, such as you stated. It’s about creating a complete new house the place we set the phrases for what magnificence and energy appear like. The truth that we’re capable of have this dialog by means of artwork is highly effective in itself as a result of artwork provides us the instruments to problem these norms in ways in which transcend phrases.
RN: Positively. It’s in the end about creating our personal reflections. If society isn’t going to offer us a mirrored image that we are able to see ourselves in, then we create it ourselves. The thought of self-love and reflection is a lot extra layered while you’re a Black queer man. And this work I’m doing round Narcissus permits me to get into that. It’s not a few easy narrative of self-importance. It’s extra about what occurs while you lastly see your self; while you cease ready for another person handy you a mirror that reveals you what you wish to see.
Damien Davis, “Ancient Still Life” (2015), digital print on chilly press paper, 20 x 30 inches (50.8 x 76.2 cm) (picture by Damien Davis, courtesy the artist)
DD: I believe we’re each utilizing our work to carve out these areas for ourselves and for individuals like us. It’s a manner of claiming, “We are here.” However we’re not simply right here in the way in which individuals count on us to be — we’re bringing our definitions of magnificence and energy into the dialog. And in that sense, we’re doing extra than simply rejecting or resisting — we’re rewriting the entire thing. And talking of that, with The Met’s upcoming Superfine: Tailoring Black Type exhibition, it looks like they’re making an attempt to faucet into that dialog round magnificence and Black males, significantly by means of style. How do you’re feeling about that?
RN: You already know, I’m intrigued. I see nice potential, however I even have my reservations. The Met is a culturally large establishment with a really sophisticated historical past of appropriation and theft. Whereas I truthfully assume they’re making an attempt to interact with these vital themes, I’m not fully certain they’ll be capable of totally seize the nuances of Black male magnificence by means of the lens of style — and particularly emphasize its basic intersection with Black queerness, which is one thing altogether totally different from White gayness. Who’s there to information the dialog? Who’s invested in controlling the narrative? Will they dig into the complexities and dynamics of the facility of identification expression? The intersectionalities of these expressions? Or the nuanced language of the signifiers?
DD: It’s difficult as a result of, on the one hand, it’s nice that these establishments are acknowledging the dialog, however alternatively, it appears like they’re usually simply scratching the floor.
RN: And never understanding or valuing what they’re scratching at! It could actually all be a bit performative and patronizing.
DD: I see what you’re saying. It’s the identical rigidity that comes up within the artwork world basically — this concept of commodification versus cultural critique. I believe what you’re doing with Narcissus will get on the coronary heart of that rigidity. It’s not nearly placing queer Black males within the body of magnificence, but additionally about questioning who will get to determine what magnificence seems to be like.
RN: Sure, and that’s why I reserve the proper to be essential of a PWI (predominantly White establishment) doing this present. There may be, after all, the chance to platform a neighborhood, however there are the opposing and sure alternatives, if historical past is prologue, to commodify, objectify, exploit, and flatten. I’m pondering of how Madonna’s “Vogue” shined a light-weight whereas additionally exploiting the ballroom neighborhood. So the query is that this: Is that neighborhood higher or worse? Colonizers colonize. So what function does company play? I’d argue company is the important thing to there being a distinct and higher end result from subsequent yr’s Met Gala theme. If Black dandies, of which I’m one, can form and contextualize the narrative, I’ve hope.
DD: That’s such a obligatory level. And it ties again to your work with Narcissus — since you’re not simply speaking about magnificence, you’re speaking about energy: who will get to carry it, who’s excluded from it, and the way magnificence operates as each a forex and a weapon inside that dynamic.
RN: This work turns into a manner for me to discover these concepts in a very direct manner. It’s not nearly how we outline magnificence — it’s about reclaiming our company to like ourselves freed from gendered requirements of magnificence, or heterosexual norms of working. In order that’s what I hope my work brings to the dialog, particularly as we see extra establishments like The Met striving to be extra inclusive. The query will all the time be, how will we middle ourselves in our personal narratives? It’s unimaginable with out understanding and loving ourselves utterly and unapologetically.
Ron Norsworthy, “Narcissus in Rollers” (2024), mixed-media collage in reduction on wooden panel, 30 x 38 inches (~76.2 x 96.5 cm)
